The Right Questions with James Victore
The Right Questions is designed to help you get paid to do what you love and stay sane in the process.
The Right Questions with James Victore
Episode 52: The Client-Creative Relationship
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The relationship between creatives and clients can be a delicate dance of expectations, boundaries, and mutual respect.
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All right, let's do this thing. Howdy, and welcome to the Right Questions, the podcast designed to help you get paid to do what you love. I am the boss, so look busy, and today I want to talk to you about a funny idea. A funny thing happened recently. I put this under the category of clients say the darndest things. Say the darndest things.
Speaker 1:I was in a situation a smallish job, but a fun job for a new restaurant that was being built by a friend of mine. They wanted me to design the interior of their bathroom. Right, what a delightful job, what a fun opportunity. I'm like, of course, I will design the inside of your bathroom. By the way, I categorize this job, or I call this job fun, but to me, all jobs can be fun. All jobs are fun, all jobs are creative. There are no boring jobs. There are only boring designers. If you can't wrap your head around it, maybe you should walk away yourself, but the end result of this restaurant job is that it's not going to happen. It's not going to be fun because it turned out that they weren't fun. It's not going to be fun because it turned out that they weren't fun.
Speaker 1:Everybody was on board, we had the money agreed on and the payments all set. I'd even gone out to the you know, driven an hour away and gone out to see the place, to physically see, you know, what was being put in, and we had expectations set as far as payment and as far as timing of the payment. But then we had to go looking for the money. So we sent a very pleasant email or text to the client and said, hey, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know when's that going to happen? And we get this back and it says you can expect it. When I get to it it's on the list.
Speaker 1:If James's time is that valuable and we need to cancel the project. I understand I was a little bit taken aback. I was like, wow, just like that, right out of the blue. Wow, we felt that was unsuitable and I'm not going to go about bending for any job or any amount of money. Right, I'm not going to. I don't want to be, I don't want to be disrespected. Do I want to be handled a certain way? Yeah, and that is certainly certainly not it. If James's time is that valuable, we need to cancel the project. Yeah, and the very last thing I want to do is have an argument with a potential client right and create bad blood going into the job.
Speaker 1:So we of course agreed that perhaps canceling was the best decision and the important takeaway of this obviously one of the many important takeaways is is never work for assholes, right? Trust your gut, I mean. This means for freelance and this means for any job, any in-house job you had and I've heard there are a lot of jobs that suck. I've heard there are soul-sucking jobs out there, but that shouldn't happen to you. It's because it means you're letting it happen. Right?
Speaker 1:I don't like turning down work and I don't suggest anybody turn down making a living. We need to get paid to do what we love, right, and I love what I do and I love finding the serious play in my work. And of course, of course, of course, of course, there's the ego. I want to be wanted. You know I want to be, I want to be desired, I want people to understand what I do and I want to do good work for myself and I want to do good work for others. And here's the biggie Like you, I want to be seen and heard and appreciated. And that last bit, the appreciated or the loved bit, was certainly left out from their communications, right, possibly the person was having a bad day, possibly, possibly, possibly, but the end result is we said goodbye, right.
Speaker 1:When working with clients, we often leave that part out, that part that we want to be seen and heard and appreciated. We, we, we become the help, right? We are now unseen and underappreciated and we put ourselves second or last. And I've been there, I've seen that. And here's the thing we work in an amorphous world. This creativity thing, right. This creativity thing you do, this cute thing, you do, this clever thing, you do, right. Even we diminish it like that. And it's difficult to describe what we do. And, more than that, it's difficult to describe its value. And that's the important part. That's what we want to talk about today how to describe the value of what you do.
Speaker 1:And you know not to go off on a rant, but I like rants, so I'm going to go off on this one. But you know, we live in increasingly in a world where not necessarily art and design have less value, but where quality, where just quality, has less and less meaning. We don't have that in our lives as much. We drive relatively boring cars, we eat bland and empty calories, we're bombarded with distraction, disguised as candy, right, you know, adults playing video games don't even get me started. I know we need a little R&R. Entertainment these days is Spider-Man 6 or Spider-Man spinoffs. You know, I couldn't even count the number of things related to Spider-Man that are out there and reportedly making money.
Speaker 1:And for us, for creatives, we have design sites. There are sites that you can go to, sites that clients can go to, the public can go to, even designers can go to. That lowball, everybody. You stick in your parameters and it goes. There's your 30 designs to choose from, 30 logos to choose from. And how do you teach value, how do you teach your value and respect to clients when there's a site or even other designers who spit out 20 logos all based on a circle, for some poor sap to decide on? There's a new book that came out on how to design logos and the cover of it is full of at least 40 designs for, I assume, 40 different clients that are all based on circles, right, and then the poor client, without really knowing what he's looking at. You know, because the designer went for volume, you know, and not really being curious about the client's needs. You know which is more important, curious about the client's needs. You know which is more important or more important than the audience? The client's audiences needs and wants right.
Speaker 1:So how can we design, how can we be creative, how can we create a niche for ourself where we own our value, we own our place, when there are countless books and courses on designing logos that look like cookie cutters? You know, it's like lions and tigers and bears. Oh my, and here's the thing. Here's the thing about describing your value and the value of your work. You need to tell them what to think. You need to tell people who you are and how to think of you, how to work with you. We need to teach people our value, teach them who you are, what you stand for, and always, always, feel free to walk away from anything that does not feel kosher. Do not start dropping your guard, lowering your standards because of money. And how do you describe or translate your value if you have no practice with it? So that's the thing. We have to start practicing that for ourselves.
Speaker 1:You know what a lot of us I hear it in conversations we apply that same cliche of the creative soul who's we're so used to saying yeah, my, my mom doesn't know what I do for a living. Well, get her to know. That's the beginning process. Don't just fall back on those lazy cliches. It's because we've not explained it well enough for ourselves. We needed to explain it to ourselves because it's up to us to educate our family, educate our friends, educate our clients.
Speaker 1:You know, granted, my own parents, you know, the only thing they understood about me was that I owned a home. I have kids. I was able to do that and possibly taking them to my show at the MoMA. Maybe when I took them to, when I had an exhibition at the MoMA and I showed them and the stuff was on the walls, maybe they might've made some connection there. Otherwise, what they know is I draw pictures and somehow got paid, even when I gave my mom the letter, the letter from the Museum of Modern Art that I got from then, which I asked them to write me a letter, and I said, hey, could you write it to my mom, because she would really dig that. It said, dear Mrs, dear James, victoria's mom, right, we have, we're the pleasure to announce. You know, even that that got hung on the refrigerator, on the refrigerator.
Speaker 1:So you know, just getting your family to understand what you do can be difficult, but it's the first step, right? We first have to understand our value to ourselves, and I've had too many frustrated creatives who contact me to help them. Right, they're like, hey, james, I'm having a problem, I can't get through this thing. I want to get to the next level. Help me. And when I go doing my research and I start looking around on their social media, what I read in their description, it tells me that they love coffee and they love their dog. Oh, and, by the way, I create stuff. You know, how can you help other people understand when that's how you describe yourself? Right, we have to think about these things. We can't expect clients to just understand because it's a rare client that does. Most clients are used to working with people pleasers, creatives who sell themselves short, who don't know the possible value they can bring to the world, so the clients need an education.
Speaker 1:I once worked with an entrepreneur, a startup, and he was starting a running shoe store right, he's selling clothes and running shoes and he was used to working with designers. And he was used to working with designers who offered the usual format of seeing three different or four different designs and going through multiple revisions when I explained this isn't how I work. I like to make one thing and show it to you, then we can have a discussion. He wasn't comfortable because he was so trained or maybe spoiled by other designers who, to me, were in the catering business. Right, how about this? How about this? How about this? How about this? I like to have an opinion. Right, how about this? How about this? How about this? How about this? I like to have an opinion. I like to see through this process. I like to come to a place that nobody else can come from, but I obviously need a special client to do that with right.
Speaker 1:You know, I followed back on this particular entrepreneur and his project a year after and he hadn't committed to anything. There was no store, so I guess it was probably not a good fit to begin with. There was some confusion within his own ranks, I believe. You know. That reminds me of how it works for Broadway, and I mean Broadway, broadway, bright lights, big city. You know, I've worked on enough Broadway posters for shows to know that that's the process. An agency will contact three to five different designers They've got such a big budget. They contact all these different people and all these different people give them all different types of designs and basically they overwhelm the client with so many different things and the client sits back and goes yeah, I like the words on this one and the picture on that one and the color. Can we just put that all together? And it's this Frankenstein. It's a terrible way to work because nobody has an opinion right.
Speaker 1:But, contrarily, I had a nice project from Etsy once. The art director knew my work and it was an in-house campaign of theirs and they sent me the brief and the project description and they had all the usual you know, the rights. That was the thing, the rights. I was looking through this large paragraph and it was the rights and it was thing, the rights. I was looking through this large paragraph and it was the rights and it was worldwide and this and other universes and that they could basically use it forever and it was an in-house thing. But it was like well, that doesn't mean they couldn't use it on, you know, bags and swag and t-shirts, because you know, as a creative, we get paid for usage. You know the budget was not great, it was good, it was healthy, but you know, for all those uses it kind of sucked. Plus, they laid out how many revisions and changes they expected, which you know. Hey, how flexible is your budget? Is it weightlifter flexible or gymnast flexible? And then I just said hey, by the way, with all your multiple concepts, I actually don't work that way. And they got back to me and they literally said oh yes, we forgot how you work. We look forward to seeing what you present. And they doubled the budget.
Speaker 1:Right Right now you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victoria could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish he was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to yourworkisagiftcom. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out, but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to yourworkisagiftcom, let's talk.
Speaker 1:And the end of the story is that they loved the work, the one thing I sent in, and they ran with it and there were no changes. So those unicorns exist, but I think they also exist because we believe they exist, because we make them exist, because we train them to exist. Listen, it's okay to have things your way. It's okay to be different, your way. It's okay to be different. It's certainly okay to craft a reputation for yourself and you don't have to be like this is how it's going to be. Don't do those things. It's not that at all.
Speaker 1:I, james Victoria, am easy to work with. I am efficient, I make decisions right and people pay me to do that. People pay me to make decisions for them so they don't have to go through all those different layers. I work this way because I want to. That's it. I work this way because it works for me. That's it. I work this way because it works for me. I can not only come up with three different solutions as other designers, but I can come up with 50, right, I am a creative fountain. I can do this all day. You know, I learned this when I started out, when I was a freelance book jacket designer. Publishers would want many multiple revisions of covers, changes and changes and changes, and I learned who not to work with. Because it was supremely unhealthy. And it was completely unhealthy to the budget because the budget didn't change for all these revisions. It just kept getting whittled away, right? Think about that.
Speaker 1:I also had an MTV. When MTV was big, I had an MTV campaign that I worked on and I worked with the creative director made the decision. But I worked with one of the art directors. He contacted me. We went through the thing. I sent the work in on time. I sent the work. The one thing. I sent it on time and it got accepted and they loved it. The one thing they did was they made my signature smaller, much smaller, which was like, nah, okay, but it's still on there. Later, at a party, I met the art director who had initially contacted me and he said, hey, you know, we were really happy with that campaign and I was like, oh, awesome, I'm glad it worked out. He said, well, yeah, but I kind of expected like three different ideas and I said, if you pay me three times, I will give you three ideas. That's how it works. Yeah, so I also work this way for respect, right?
Speaker 1:I want my clients to understand the value and even the co-authorship I want in my work. When I design magazine covers for Time or Esquire or the New York Times, I sign my work, work. I sign the book jackets that I design. There's an entire series of do books out there by a publisher. There's like 40 or more, by a publisher out of the UK called the Do Book Company. My signature is on every single cover. I sign them because that's what an artist would do. I sign them because my heroes historically did that. Alvin Lustig signed his book jackets. Paul Rand signed his book jackets.
Speaker 1:It's a level of responsibility I take in my work, meaning like, if you like this, I did it, if you hate this, I did it. Today I have a handy way to look at jobs and sometimes I have to teach this to my coaching clients. I say, listen, there are God jobs and there are money jobs. And you got to know the difference. And by God job I mean I approach every job as an opportunity to do great work. I want to educate, I want to entertain, I want to enlighten and delight, right as an opportunity to make work for God and I use the lowercase g with no disrespect to any of your deities, right. But in the process, if the client or clients are not feeling my altruism and start disagreeing with me and it turns out to be a money job for some unfortunate reason, I finished my work and get paid and I'm done. No muss, no fuss, and I also take my signature off. That's my little. Well, I'm taking my signature and going home. Think about it. There are God jobs and there are money jobs, and you have to know the difference and you can do this too. You can just start. Start now. Create a reputation for being efficient, for being focused and, most importantly, being trustworthy.
Speaker 1:A few ideas about working with clients. You know I went looking around to say, hey, how do people work with clients? Let me do some research, and there are tons of websites with tons of information out in the world and it's all different and it's all about, like you know how to work with difficult clients, how to work with pushy clients, how to work with you know this kind of thing. But beware, because many of these sources and much of this information, they should hand out knee pads with the advice, because they give a lot of advice about how to handle difficult clients and I don't want you guys working on your knees, right. I want you guys to fire these difficult clients and I don't want you guys working on your knees, right. I want you guys to fire these difficult clients. Yeah, there are difficult clients out there and there shouldn't be right, because we want to work with.
Speaker 1:The way we work with clients is the same as we work in any other relationship, right? You don't want to say I have a difficult boyfriend, how's your boyfriend Difficult? You don't want that. You want people that you like working with, you know. So we need to beware of how subservient we want to be and how we want to handle people, because at the end of the day, even a ton of money, if you're working on a weekend and you're not happy, it's not worth it. If you're up really late and you got, like you know, family duties and shit to do the next day and you're not happy, then it's not worth it. That relationship is hurting you and we need to understand that. So a few things that we need to understand about handling any relationship is communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate right. Know each other's boundaries, know what we expect, set expectations early, keep your promises. That's a big one. We want to be people that others trust, right? Because, again, they don't really know what we do, but they want to trust us. People buy people. That's important. So we have to let them know they can trust us by letting them know we have their best interest in mind.
Speaker 1:And here's something further that even the clients sometimes forget. Like me, you can see past the client and see the intended audience and what they want. And they want to be spoken to honestly. They want to hear a trustworthy and righteous voice. I mean, what do they want? They want to be seen and heard and loved. They want to be entertained and educated and delighted right, just like you, because people are people.
Speaker 1:If I've not worked with a client before, I'd go through a little process of trying to find out what they like right, to figure out what their tolerances are, look at their other work and see what they've been creating. I often ask of a new client what work of mine they've seen before so I can know what they're looking for. So I don't go off searching for a flush left Helvetica solution if they want itchy, scratchy handwriting right. Here's an important piece of work about working, particularly particularly with friends and relatives. Number one don't I always say don't, don't, do it, don't do it. It's just so tough, it's so hard, it's so hard to get them to appreciate and understand right. Or two do the work but create boundaries, create a contract, create agreements so that at the end of the project you can agree to still like each other. That's important At the end of the project, you can agree to still like each other. That's important. And one really nice note that I've learned in talking about this subject with Shannon was Shannon gave me some information that she had learned from her time in design school, and it was this when you're working with friends and family especially, you write a very clear proposal to them, telling them that they can't afford you. Right, you're probably giving them the family discount, right, so they can't afford you. But show them. Show them the deep discount they are receiving, that is for them. That's what they need to understand that you are doing them a favor and giving them this deep discount and maybe, just maybe, that will win you some respect and then they won't hang your sketches on the refrigerator.
Speaker 1:You know, for me, I always say that I want comrades. I want comrades, not clients, I want long-term relationships. You know, I learned that from my freelance time in new york, when I would get a call from somebody from once and and it would just be like they would ask me for one job and I would, they would go off, great, and I'd keep calling them and nothing happened. It was just like like, like having a date, and then you're just like hey, call me. Hey, you can call me, right, I want to get to know my clients. I want to get to know my comrades. I want to grow together. I want to learn how to go deeper. I want to be more committed to each other.
Speaker 1:You know, I mentioned this publisher in the UK that I work for, with the Do Books, and the way that deal came about is they had a tiny, weeny little budget, right, but they had a series of books that they wanted published. So they asked me to design the series look, and they asked me to design each and every cover, not knowing it was going to go to like 40 or more books. And I said, okay, here's how it goes. Because you don't have the budget, I will do the series look and I will do all of your covers, but you get no say whatsoever, meaning they don't get to make any changes. I design it and they print it.
Speaker 1:And this relationship works out very well because we're both supremely committed. Every time I get a job from them, I'm like, oh God, I got to do my best work. Now I really got to think about this, and when we first started working, you know they said they wrote on their blog that James Victoria asked us to trust him, and we're glad that we did so. What happens is, when you search out and find these unicorns, you know or make these unicorns even. You need to take care of them.
Speaker 1:And one last note about working with clients, and I'm not sure if you know this yet. I don't think this is the most popular information, but did you know that you have the freedom to fire a client? You do, you do. It's just again, it's a relationship. If you feel like you're being stressed out, if it's just not working for you, you do have that freedom to fire them. If they are not good at communicating or show a lack of respect or whatever does not feel good in your gut and you cannot correct it and you know in your heart that they're just not there, you can gracefully let them go, and this in turn makes way for better clients to come your way and tells the universe that there is some shit you will not eat.
Speaker 1:So what is the right question here? You know, possibly is it do you work for assholes? Or possibly better would be do you know what your value is? Because I think your value is more than what you believe it is now. I think you are valuable, I think you are worthy, I think that you are doing great work and you are trying very hard. And if you are not doing good work, then keep going because it's going to get better. And there are those clients out there and there is that audience out there. You just have to keep going. They don't know about you and you don't know about them, but they are there and you will find them.
Speaker 1:And, yes, sometimes we all make bad decisions, or sometimes clients go crazy, or sometimes we go crazy, or sometimes it's just a bad fit. We are all human beings and we're flawed and full of folly and nobody has the answers and we all want to be seen and heard and loved, even my bathroom client. Hey, you want to know what I was going to do for the bathroom job. Because I thought about it, I spent time, you know, I spent time working on this thing, thinking about it. I wanted to do something really brave and really ballsy and a challenge to myself. So I was going to go in before the opening.
Speaker 1:I was going to go in with a stepladder and a handful of paint pens, all just black, and just start drawing. You know, drawing unicorns and voice balloons. I was going to make a little funny little exit sign. Possibly some potty humor, maybe some inspirational words, a lovely mishmash of creative output in black and white. I was really looking forward to the challenge. It would have been glorious. So those are some of my thoughts on working with clients. Thank you for being here, thank you for supporting this program. We just want to help you get paid to do what you love. Keep going, I love you. I'm James, victoria, and this is the Right Questions. Adios, we'll see you next time.