The Right Questions with James Victore
The Right Questions is designed to help you get paid to do what you love and stay sane in the process.
The Right Questions with James Victore
Episode 79: Jon Acuff
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I talk with Jon Acuff about the questions that shape a life, from childhood “weirdness” and stage instincts to the hard parts of being a public voice. We dig into humor, mindset, perfectionism, productivity, and what “enough” looks like when you want to keep growing without burning down your relationships.
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Why Jon Acuff Resonates
SPEAKER_02Today I have the pleasure of sharing with you someone whom I call a friend. Yet I've actually never met him. John Akoff is a writer, a speaker, and someone people turn to when they're trying to make sense of their work and their lives. He's a New York Times bestselling author, has reached millions of people, and built a career around encouragement. But what I'm most interested in isn't what he's accomplished. It's who he is underneath all of that. John grew up inside faith, humor, ambition, and expectation. And today, we're talking about what made him weird as a kid, what he learned from his parents, and how he's navigated having a voice that so many people turn to. Plus, John is one of the kindest and most generous and authentic men I have had the pleasure of knowing. This conversation isn't about answers. It's about the questions that shape a life. Let's do this.
The Weird Kid Origin Story
SPEAKER_00One button. I hear you.
SPEAKER_02I hear you.
SPEAKER_00I often forget it.
SPEAKER_02Um, let's just jump in. Uh, John, can you tell me what made you weird as a kid?
SPEAKER_00What made me weird as a kid? Um, I loved writing poetry. Um, that not every kid liked poetry. So I remember in third grade at Doyon Elementary School, my teacher, Mrs. Harris, laminated some poems I wrote. It was an assignment, but I definitely was probably the kid in the class that like really leaned into the assignment. So I would say writing um and sketching were two things that weren't exactly normal in my little, you know, North Shore town in Massachusetts. But yeah, those were the that. And then um, I wanted to be on stage. I remember very clearly at six years old, I was jumping around on a playground, and this couple walking by me without kids was walking by, and I thought, they're gonna see how cool these moves are and probably want to have their own kid. Like I felt very performative. That's a weird thing to think of. Like this, like the stuff I'm doing on this playground is probably going to inspire them to have their own children. So I liked the stage from like the get-go.
SPEAKER_02You know, that's so funny because I remember clearly when I was a kid, I wanted to be a um I wanted to be a writer. And I hated writing that. I don't know where that came from, but I wanted to be a writer. Oh, my mother uh worked in a university library, that's probably where it came from. Uh, I wanted to be a writer, I wanted to be an artist, I wanted to be a uh comedian, and I wanted to be a daredevil, and I somehow um have been able to do all those things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I've seen your wounds, I've seen your daredevil wounds.
SPEAKER_02So um, yeah, I love that uh that that yours have come true as well.
Live Events And Humor That Lands
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been fun. It's it's one uh, you know, I thought about that moment recently as I was kind of thinking about what's my origin story, and that feels like part of it. And then part of it, like your mom was a library, you know, and worked in a university library, my dad's a pastor. So I saw a human stand on stage regularly as part of their job. So it didn't feel foreign to me. Love like, oh yeah, when you have ideas, you can stand in front of people and share those ideas. So that definitely informed what I do today. Um, I'm you know, I'm in corporations more than anything, but that idea of like you can have an idea and share it in a big crowd certainly started there.
SPEAKER_02Um, you didn't choose the role of a pastor, but yet somehow you are preaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So for me, it's interesting. Um, a lot of pastors' kids go one of two directions. Like they're wild, like they go off the rails and they're like, I'm out of here. And then some become pastors, and I feel like I'm right in the middle. So, no, I I didn't become a pastor, um, but I do, I do really believe in the power of a live event. I think, you know, as I think about my career, I'm kind of going, what's gonna be AI proof? What's gonna be AI proof? And I really believe live events are one of the few things in my space that will be, because even COVID couldn't kill them. Like, even like we had all the virtual events we could have possibly taken during COVID, and people still were excited to get back to the same space. And that's why you and I agree on so many things. Like when you do a small creative event at your property, I'm like, oh, of course. Or when you do the dinner series, I'm like, of course, like magic happens in the same room. And so for me, um, even though I didn't go the church route, I was like, I think there's magic that happens in the same room. I want to be part of that magic. Like, I it's my favorite thing in the world. I I feel like it's the greatest job in the world. I'm 15 years in. I'm still like, I can't believe I get paid to do this. Like, I say to people, young people, like, find something you love doing so much, you do it for free. And the second step, which is often missed, is get so good at it, people pay you a lot of money. Like, then you get to do it for a long time. And so I think it's that combo. So I yeah, I feel super fortunate that I get to do this.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Yeah, um, it is completely a privilege to be on stage and live uh with people, um, and to get them to sing and to get them to dance and to get them to move the way I try to to to work with them. Um, and yes, that word magic. It is crazy. It is, you know, to do a stage event is one thing, but to do the the the the smaller event events where you can really connect with people and really help them define who they are and help them direct their lives is is well, stuff happens you can't plan.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing. Like, I think the best part of a speech is when you can tell the audience can tell, and you know, this wasn't planned. This wasn't, I have this. So the other day I spoke to a hundred hospital executives in Santa Barbara, California. And as I was driving up to the event, there was a woman in a string bikini rollerblading, like rhythmically. And I mentioned that in my talk, and I was like, Santa Barbara is like a double mint dum commercial, and like that happened because I had just seen that, and that was one of the biggest laughs because it was fresh and it was, you know, it was real. And so I I think that's what what one of my favorite things is like when you have the bravery to let something happen that wasn't planned, which which takes skill and takes courage, but I think is well worth it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And also uh with you on stage, I I know it works with me as and it's something that just kind of sometimes just pops out of my mouth, but um, I know that uh humor is a tool for you as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's my favorite tool. I um it's something I'm really serious about. I really think about it, I really hone it. And like an example of that would be, and I often use it to communicate truth in a in an interesting way. So I'll give you an example. So I have this thing where I'm saying that uh the world is changing, like it's harder for leaders now. And I the one of the jokes I do is 20 years ago, leaders didn't have to convince people to come to an office. They just said, hey, here is our building, this is where we work, we'll see you Monday through Friday. And now they have to do marketing campaigns where they're like, look at our coffee. We have pony Fridays, you can ride a pony between meetings. And I realized if I added the word Shetland pony, that was funnier. But and if I added the word Frisian, like that's a pony people don't know. So the best one was Shetland. And like if I do that one and I do it like actual physical motion, and then every leader goes, Oh, that's ridiculous, but I do have to convince. So, like, I love figuring out, like, oh, here's the right word, this is the wrong word, here's what's gonna like my favorite joke. I'm doing right now is I do this thing where I say the hardest part of the 11th diet is the first 10 that didn't work, and that's a real true thing, and it sits with you. And then I exaggerate it by saying, if you get a Peloton, your Beauflex scrolls out of the garage, and that gets a laugh. But then I go, even your thigh master will come out of the closet and automatically laugh. And then I go, Hey, if you're younger than me, let me explain it. And I say, in the 1980s, there was a scientist named Suzanne Summers, and scientist named Suzanne Summers highlights the absurdity of the whole thing, and people lose like I love that kind of thing, and so I I definitely use it as a tool where I'm trying to get you to believe what I'm saying, to see it, like I'm exaggerating it and making it neon with humor, so you can't deny, like, oh, that's right, like that did happen to me, or he's right. This is a thing I struggle with. So, yeah, it's my favorite tool. Easy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, there's a paraphrasing of a Picasso quote that um um that I love that says, um uh comedy isn't truth. Comedy is a lie to illustrate the truth.
SPEAKER_01That's good, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, um, you know, I mean I always I use I use um um comedy and jokes to illustrate bigger ideas, to make them to make them you know the um the teaspoon of sugar. Yeah, totally.
Mantras And Truth Tellers
SPEAKER_02Um what are lessons or advice that stick with you that um your parents gave you, if you know, if any?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, I'll I'll certainly get some from them, but I'll I'll give you one that you gave me years later that I still think about. I put it in a book and and quoted you. Like, we I hired you for like an hour creative session a couple years ago because I felt really creatively stuck. And I I read your books long before I had the privilege of actually becoming your friend. And so you were doing, you know, coaching and encouragement online. And I was like, oh, I'm in, signed up, paid for it, worth every dollar. And one of the things you said to me was, I want you to practice at saying everything's always working out for me. Everything's always working out for me. And I took that to heart, and it's something that became part of our family, like our family says it. If I get a good parking spot, I say to my kids, like, hey, and they go, everything's always working out for me. So for me, I just want, you know, part of why I was excited about this this conversation was I'd get to tell you that. I'd get to say, hey, I, you know, I'm somebody who's benefited from the creativity that James teaches. Like I needed that encouragement. Um, and so that's something that I take to heart, is something that you taught me. My parents, um, you know, my dad, I remember he said one time he said, Um, make sure you surround yourself with people whose livelihood isn't based on telling you the truth. He was like, because people will get to an edge where they'll go, uh, my mortgage. Like, I want to tell them that, like, have people in your life who can tell you the truth and they're not your employees or they're not tied to you financially. And so that was a good encouragement for me of like, who are my friends that you know love me enough to tell me things I might not like to hear? Because 100% self-awareness, I feel like is impossible. Like, I heard Roy Williams, this advertising guy, say it's hard to read the label when you're inside the bottle. And I found that to be true in my own life. And so having friends and people in my life that can go, hey man, the way you did this, the way it came off, I don't think you meant it that way. Or hey, you're headed down this path that looks a little, I don't think this is where you want to end up, kind of thing. So he really encouraged me to keep truth tellers in my life. And I I uh I really value that. And then both my parents were so encouraging. My mom's um a super optimist. So she, if I said, Hey, I think I could write a book, she'd just like, I think you'd write 10, you know. So she was always um very, very optimistic. So if I ever needed encouragement, I knew where to go.
SPEAKER_02Excellent.
Anger Fear And Emotional Practice
SPEAKER_02Um, you are kind of known, or you you come off and present yourself as a super even keeled guy, kind of uh even an even all-around nice guy. Um what do you do with your anger? Oh, yeah. What do you do with your your your freaking disappointment?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say I don't feel like I'm even keeled. I was thinking about this yesterday. I think over time my curves have mellowed a little. Like when I was young, like when I was in my early 20s, I was so like either really up or really down that we called it Summer John and Winter John. Like Summer John was like super casual, anything's possible. Hey, Winter John was like super reflective, pretty anxious, nothing's gonna work out. We got to take control of every decision, pretty rigid. And it was a pretty big swing. And my wife and I talked about it because that was hard in our marriage. Like, which version of me was she going to get, you know, depending on kind of the mood I was in. And I would say over the years, it's the curve's gotten smaller, but it's still there. Um, and some of it's work-based, some of it's you know, weather-based, you know, some of it's what kind of stress I'm dealing with. So I don't feel like I'm getting more even keel, I guess, as I as I learn how to kind of live in this life. Um, but I don't feel super even keel. What I do with my anger, um, well, one, learn that like it's been a while, it's taken me a while to learn it's okay. Um, I would say growing up, I felt like, especially in a church setting, like anger wasn't a positive thing. So, like I had a counselor tell me, like, it's the feelings you have about the feelings that often get you in trouble. So I used to feel very guilty if I felt angry. So if I felt angry, it's like, oh, this is a sinful feeling, I shouldn't be doing this, then I'd feel guilty. And then that would make me more angry, which made me feel more guilty. And I was this stuck in this loop. Um, and so one is learning how to see it. One is learning how to go, am I passionate about a cause right now? If this is this like healthy righteousness about something that's wrong, and I'm a firstborn, and so I'm a rule follower, and maybe it's ah, you know, is it that? Um, is it, you know, is it misplaced? Um, is it am I applying anger to this thing because there's a really big thing I'm sad about or upset about that I can't control? And so I'm overreacting on this thing I can control. So I'm hiding from the real thing that I don't want to deal with. Yeah. Um, I would say, you know, anger is one of the topics I've talked a lot about with counselors over the years is like, where does it go? How do I, how do I use it in a positive way? You know, how do I, you know, how do I process it? How do you what part of like where do passion and anger intertwin and you know intertangle? Um, so yeah, I would, yeah, I would say I have a I have a lot more fear than I have anger, but sometimes the the challenge for me, James, honestly, is if I've got a situation that I'm afraid of and I look at my 10 emotions or five feelings, whatever, I go, Hey, we got something to deal with. Who wants to step up? Anger is often the one with his the only one raising his hand. He's like, I got this. I got this. Pick me, pick me. And I'm like, oh no, no, we need patience. Will patience pipe up? Hey, patience, wake up. Or like, and anger's like, no, no, no, me, me, me. And so in life, I've learned to kind of process that. And it's not something I would say I'm great at right now, but it it feels like I didn't even know I had access to it as an acceptable emotion until I was like in my 30s.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the difference is a breath, right? No, the difference is, you know, one cleansing deep breath, a moment.
SPEAKER_00What do you do with your anger? Like when you, okay, you've had a disappointment, something blew up, something didn't work.
SPEAKER_02You're it's so funny you asked that. Um, one, I totally recognize the summer winter. Um, you know, me in an airport. Me in an airport 15 years ago was a mess. It was just like, we gotta do this, we gotta be there four hours early, we gotta rah-rah, rah, right? Um now I'm you know, super much, much more chill. I'm not super chill about airports, but so I I recognize coming to that. Um, but for me, I oddly enough, I have to, I I I even today I got a I sent out a quote for you know for a commercial project, and obviously I was probably like three times what they wanted to pay, and they came back and they were like, well, bam, another time, and I have to go. One meant for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh what did I just save myself from? You know, like uh it it it is is it a version of everything's always working out for me? Sure. Right?
SPEAKER_00So well, yeah, because you're because the the lie is that was the thing that would have saved me or been the one, or and and you imagine this best case scenario that you just lost out on versus yeah, we might not have been a good client relationship, like it might not have it might have caused more stress than the dollar.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I I I immediately the you know when I when I got the job and I was going through it was usages and you know worldwide rights and you know all the all the agile stuff. And um, in fact, my mind was I get to take my kids to the fucking aquarium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all I wanted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Co Writing With His Daughters
SPEAKER_02Um, speaking of kids, my kids, my two are super conscious of what I do for a living, and I get them involved at every point possible. Tell me the experience of working with your daughters on your book, um, your new playlist. What was that like? What was that? How was it? How was that? I I was I I saw that and I was like, fuck, I can't wait till I get to cheer my guys on like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I would say it was a huge learning experience for me just because so the book, the book, your new playlist wasn't part of the plan I had. I wrote a book called Soundtracks about mindset, and then parents said, Hey, do you have a version for teenagers? Like my teen is struggling with their mindset, and that that was my seventh book. No one had ever asked me that on the first six books. So I went, Oh, okay. But I knew if I wrote it, it would sound like an adult trying to sound young. And so I asked my two daughters to help me with it. And the eye-opening thing would be I would kind of frame out a chapter and I'd go, Hey, here are the five things teenagers are stressed about. And they would go, No, we're not, no, we're not, no, we're not, no, we're not. And there's four others you didn't even mention. And so that was for me, like, oh, so I got this kind of peek into their world, and then I got to watch them be brave. I mean, this the book opens up with my youngest daughter getting um cut from the lacrosse team, which she got a text, and the coach was very kind about it, but it was a devastating moment for a sophomore girl in high school, and that was part of her identity and all that. But I got to watch her be brave to go, and she suggested putting it in. Like, hey, I think other kids are gonna go through some form of this. Why don't we put that in there? And so I kind of got to watch them. I would say where there were times where if I could do it again, I would have pulled back a little. There's things we throw our kids into that I go, oh man, that's a challenging thing. So, like an example would be our second book. They recorded both audiobooks, and the second one, we had to finish it because we had this window in the studio on the last day of high school for my youngest daughter. And so now I would go, man, that was unfair to her. Of it's the last day, you're running really excited. It's the end of high school, like, whoa, what a transition! And she has to leave that and come right to the the audio studio and do a difficult thing, which is read an audio book out loud. And I, you know, so I would have changed that, but I did get to watch her sister in that moment go, Hey, I'll take these three chapters, you chill out, you kind of get get yourself centered, and then you can jump in. And so I got to watch her take care of her uh her sister that way. But yeah, I, you know, it's a fun experience, and it taught me a lot about them, um, and and what they're capable of and how they think, um, and how they think differently than me, and the dad jokes that they would be like, This is a terrible joke. I don't want to don't put that in the book. Like nobody says things that way, dad. So they were they were good, uh, they were good editors.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Excellent. I I you give me something to look forward to. And I I mean, I've got two amazing kids. I'm you know, I'm really looking forward to collaborating with them, and you know, um, so uh one writer to another.
Boring Excellence Schedules And Rest
SPEAKER_02And one writer to another, you are a prolific mofo to the point of being annoying.
SPEAKER_01That's fine.
SPEAKER_02And that's just no, that's just professional jealousy. Sure, sure. Um there's something I talk about what I'm writing or what I'm coaching, or I've I've put it in books before, and it's the the I call it the world's most boring secret weapon. It's scheduling an organization.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you have thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree with you. I the way I've been telling people is like excellence is often very boring. Like I wish it was sexier, but it is the for me, it's having a timer, like using my timer to go. I'm a really scattered person. Like I have a very fast brain, it's all over the place. So for me, a schedule is going, hey, we've got 90 minutes. We're gonna set a timer on our phone. Like, there's some ways, James, where the number one app on my phone is the free timer that comes with every iPhone. And so it's just the process of sitting down and going, okay, we're going to do this thing for 60 minutes. We're going to do this thing for 30 minutes. Um, and here's what we need to get. And then it's figuring out all the games. I feel like being um a lot of times being remarkable or being excellent is figuring out the games to play with yourself to keep yourself engaged in the life you're trying to live. And so finding like, oh, no, I do really well when I have a thing that's due to somebody I don't want to disappoint. Like I somebody I respect. And so, like, whether that's an editor or a publisher, whatever, oh, okay, I need that, or it's somebody who's going to read it, or I'm going to have to deliver it from stage. And so that gets me to sit down and do do that work. But I also feel like for books for me, I'm a highly anxious person. Like, my by nature, I tend to be pretty pessimistic, pretty uh negative, pretty anxious. And I just learned over time that like positivity has a better ROI than negativity. What can I do with all these thoughts? So when somebody goes, Man, I'll have two books come out this year. So that'll be 12. Like, you've written 12 books. Whoa. I'm like, yeah, I have so much going on up here. You should have seen me before I wrote. Like, imagine how frustrated of an artist I'm sitting in a cubicle. I'm like, I want to do all this. And like I had no outlet for it. So now I feel very fortunate that publishers have given me an outlet for it. And I try to stay faithful to the scheduling, to the time blocking, to the all the stuff that makes me productive.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Excellent.
SPEAKER_00How do you so like what's your writing process? Are you like you set a meeting with yourself and you honor the meeting? Like, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_02Uh, my process is that I get up very early in the morning. What time do you get up? 4 30.
SPEAKER_00That's pretty early.
SPEAKER_02And that's uh but but but but brother, it is beautiful. Like I have a uh a wonderful little um practice. Uh I go outside and get under the stars and look up and go, hey guys. Let's go. Let's go. That's my that's my spirituality. Let's go. Um, and I've got a beautiful little coffee regimen, and I sit out on the porch uh in the dark, and I have two hours before kiddos. Yep. Um and and that's my that's my that's my thing. The rest of the day I'm fucking distracted and scattered.
SPEAKER_00Were you always that way, or did you grow into that? Like were you a guy in high school, you were like on time or college or whatever, or did you grow into it?
SPEAKER_02Always, always on time. Um, I was ra I was brought up in the military, so always on time. Um always been an early riser, because my dad was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and and I and I realized that's where my energy is. I I can, you know, I mean, like you, you said, you know, the the brain just goes you know, monkey brain constantly. And uh I'll be at the grocery store, and it's just like I have to take out my phone and I s and I email myself and I just speak into it, and I'm like, okay, right about this, blah blah blah, and I'll talk for 10 minutes to myself and it'll just type it out, and there's you know an idea for something I'm working on. So there's a lot of there's a lot of sending myself messages on the go because you know when I'm not sitting in front of a typewriter or computer or whatever, um, you know, that's when things flow. And I can't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I have to catch the ideas like with a glance, like in my peripheral vision sometimes where the idea is just over here and I'm doing something else, and I'm able to snatch it. Because if I sit down with a blank piece of paper and say, okay, now be creative, be amazing. That's intimidating to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um when I was when I was growing up and reading books, and I think I think again, the the the influence of a growing up literally in a library. That's a long story, but literally in a library. I remember um in the um right now you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victory could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish he was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to your work is a gift.com. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out, but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to your workisagift.com. Let's talk. University system, there was always this idea of publish or perish. Like you gotta keep you gotta keep making that, you gotta keep writing to to just to maintain your spot, right? Um, John, and I know that what happens, well, let me just ask it like this. What happens when you take time off?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Um well, I would say one, I'm I'm not naturally good at it. I don't think anybody would be surprised by that and be like, this guy seems like he's good at relaxing. Uh, I'm not. What I've done over the years is we have a place in the mountains and we've gone for the last four Julys. And so in July, I I shut down pretty much. And so a lot of hiking, a lot of outdoor stuff, um, a lot of hanging out with my wife and kids. Um, so July is a good respite for me. I have a harder time like taking a Sabbath on a Saturday. Like one of the most annoying questions I asked my wife, because we're empty nest at this point, is like, hey, what are we doing today? And she'll go, we're doing it right now. Like, I'm reading a book. You're reading a book. Like this is there's no schedule. Like that kind of is hard for me to uh to process. Um, so yeah, it's for me, time off like the big the big chunk in July. Um, and then it's just like I have to not have my phone with me. Like I even time off at quote unquote night, I have to leave my phone in the living room downstairs because if it comes into my bedroom, I'm gonna stay up later than I intend to. And I'm not gonna read and I'm not gonna go to bed refreshed. I'm gonna go to bed like agitated from Instagram. And so I'm just learning, but I would say, yeah, it's not I've had a number of people I really respect be like, you've gotta be like, you've gotta find value in doing it. And and you know, so I'm trying to do stuff like I'm sketching more right now. Um, and when the voice inside my head goes, you can figure out a way to monetize this. I go, no, no, no, no. Like the sketching is the point, it's just the point. Like I got some Blackwing pencils the other day, and I was like, maybe I'm gonna get into pencils. Like I spend a thousand hours a uh a year outside. So there's an app I love called Thousand Hours Outside, and so I this will be the third year in a row I've spent a thousand hours outside. And so if I'm connected outside, if I'm in the woods, if I'm you know on a walk or on a run, it's easier for me to be you know unplugged than if I'm in my space. Um are you good at real are you good at relaxing?
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, no, I'm a I'm a tinkerer. Yeah, I'm not I'm always I'm always making or breaking something if I'm not working. Yeah, and you know, truth be told, I love that. Yeah, you know, my I love it when my kids like uh the tailgate on the truck locked, just locked. And I'm like, guys, get the toolbox, let's do this, you know? Just figure fucking figure it out. I mean, I think that's you know, the secret of creativity is you know, can you figure anything out? Yeah, I can figure anything out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right? Would you how long have you called yourself a tinkerer? Is that like a is that a word you've thought about for a while?
SPEAKER_02Oh um uh my whole life. My dad was my dad built the house we lived in. He was an amateur chef, an amateur photographer. Never called himself creative. So I kind of I kind of fabricated it for my dad. Yeah, these thoughts.
SPEAKER_00That's one of my favorite stories. This one, this is not about your dad, but one of my favorite stories in um Fact Perfection is uh about the bricklayer. I think it was a bricklayer who read at the funeral and he realized his dad was a writer and an artist. Like, man, that's a powerful story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I've got a I got a question about that coming up.
Enough And The Imposter Behind You
SPEAKER_02Um, there's uh there's a question I ask any kind of uber successful uh guest, and I have had uh super success successful CEOs, CFOs come to my you know retreats and stuff, sure, and we'll go on a walk and I always have to ask them, you know, when is it when when is it enough? Yeah, when is it enough? You know, are you asking me right now when is it enough? I'm kind of asking two things. I'm asking when is it enough? And the other part of that is is there an imposter chasing you?
SPEAKER_00I would say the imposter, let's start with the second thing. The imposter I've recognized recently is um I don't want to be like pre-mid 30s me. Like I had a pretty bad career, I was kind of all over the place, I didn't understand myself, I didn't have a writing voice yet, I was really frustrated. Um, and and sometimes I find myself competing against that person. Like I don't want to go back to that person. And I've had a counselor say to me flat out, that person doesn't exist anymore. You couldn't even be that person if you wanted to. Like you have too many friends, you have too many community, like you're plugged in, like you're healthy. Like, so I would say the imposter I feel, I don't feel like you're not a real writer kind of imposter. I feel like the me that I kind of sometimes will look back in the rearview mirror and go, oh, I didn't like that version of me. I don't want to become that version of me again. So I've got to stay a couple of steps ahead. That's not, I'm not in a healthy place when I'm looking all in the rear view mirror a lot and competing with some other version of me. Um, when is enough? Um, I don't know. I don't think it's a number. Um, meaning like I get a certain number in the bank. Like um I don't think it's a certain number of books written. Like I I realize I sold more than a million books and I hate to break it to anyone. Like that didn't do it. Like that wasn't like, oh, now I'm whole or now I'm, you know, so I don't feel like it's accomplishment based. I really feel like now that I'm in my 50s, I'm like, how am I using, how am I stewarding the gift I have? Like, how am I stewarding that? Meaning, like, how am I, you know, being generous with it? How am I sharing it? How am I keeping it sharp? Like one of my, it's not a super measurable goal, but I love being exhausted but elated. Like, like where I feel spent in the best possible way. And it's so silly, but I remember the first time I physically felt it. I had played Ultimate Frisbee for the first time when I was in college, and I thought, I can throw a frisbee. What this is gonna be easy, it's a bunch of hippies. And I threw up like it's so much running. And I was I remember being covered in mud, driving back to campus, and my friend's beat up car, and I had just given everything, and I felt this sense of I'm exhausted, but I'm elated. I love when I find work that I believe in that I think can really help people, and I spend myself on it in a way that leaves me exhausted and elated. Um, that's that's the feeling I feel like I'm chasing more and more versus it has to be this number, it has to do this thing. Cause I get I get down a bad path when I'm chasing a specific number.
SPEAKER_02Cool.
SPEAKER_00Um a lot of what's your what is your little let me throw back to you. What's enough? Like if somebody says you, what's enough? How do you answer that question? Or how do you define that?
SPEAKER_02I interesting. I think I'm on a search. I'm on a search. Uh I tell people, people are like, Oh, James, your handwriting is law. I'm like, oh it's mine. I'm constantly seeking new ways. Or when I or you know, in writing, I'm constantly like, oh my god, this sounds like my voice, but I'm constantly seeking um um what I'm really capable of. And it's not like running away, it's not like uh dissatisfaction. It's literally I know there's more in the gas tank, and I want to find it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel the same way. Somebody asked me, like, why don't you just enjoy the success you've already had? Why do you keep doing it? And I wanted to say, like, ask a bird why it flies, because it's a bird. Like, what, like this is the thing I feel, and then I would say the search for me, like, I'm a Christian, so there's an L like I like to find things and go, why do I believe that? So I saw a guy in a shirt and he said, God's in a good mood. And I was like, Oh, I don't know if I always believe that. So let me go, let me go explore that. Or like, hey, what does it look like? Like you have young children. I know I want my kids to come back when they don't have to. Like, that's a fun goal to think about. So, like, I want to be the kind of house where they want to bring people back to. We want to, part of the reason we bought a mountain house was like, we want to establish a place where they go. I grew up going to the mountains, like, and I want to have a I want to have a deep, long-lasting relationship. I'm I'm more now like, I want to do this long-term sustainable. So even exercise, I'm like, I don't feel I have friends that do like 50 mile runs in the woods, and my wife is always like, you don't have that many demons, like you've worked a lot on them, you know? And so, like, I want to be able to run until I'm in my mid 80s. So I'm no longer it kind of as a young man's pursuit, going, I've got to go this hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. It's more like, hey, how do I stay healthy over a long-term period of time? Because I want to be connected to my kids and my wife, and and so that, you know, for me, it that feels good. How old are you, James? 64. Get out of here, dude. Get out of here. Do people tell you that all the time when they find out your age? Yeah, dude, that's crazy to me. That is, I thought you were gonna say 56.
SPEAKER_02That is crazy to me in in the best shape of my life.
SPEAKER_00Don't you feel like you're just getting started in a lot of ways? Yeah, yeah, dude.
SPEAKER_02Uh and you know, and I crush it at the gym more than uh 40-year-olds. So I love that. I'm doing okay.
SPEAKER_00So good, dude. So good. This is why it's fun to talk to you.
SPEAKER_02Um, a lot of your most of your books, as I see it, uh, I think you might agree with me, are about perspective shift or or mindset.
Finding Your Authentic Voice
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, and it taps into the this uh the something that dare I say boils my balls, the dissatisfaction with this modern life. Um, you talk about the I'm but generation. I like that. I like that. It's like I'm a I'm a waiter, but I want to be, you know, a director. I'm a I'm a barista, but I want to be uh, you know, a poet. Um not sure what the question is here, but um it's about the pull of normalcy and the fear of actually being yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's terrifying. I think I mean I think a lot of people a lot of the reason people, in my opinion, stay distracted is then they don't have to worry about what shows up when they're quiet. So like if I'm at a red line, I better look at my phone. If I'm in line for 30 seconds at a restaurant, I better look at my phone. Because if I'm quiet or like what's gonna find me? Like, and maybe it is that voice of like, hey, there's this thing we always wanted to do, we still want to do it. Like, or you end up crying at a movie scene you shouldn't have cried at. You're like, why did that hit me? Like this doesn't, you know, like this wasn't even a sad scene, but it was a character did the thing that like your heart's been calling out, and your heart is throwing up a flare. Um, so yeah, for me, so for me, the I've had my own business for the last 13 years, which initially was isolating because I left a big company and then it was just all of a sudden it's just me. Um, but I had to go against the grain to do that, and I'm continuing to go grain against the grain to do that. Um, but for me, in situations like that, the more I can focus on the joy I get versus the feeling of not being normal, like being myself and leaning into that, the easier it is to not be normal. But I would say to you, James, like where I struggle with it is saying, like, okay, what's my authentic voice? Because my first drafts, often my wife will read them and go, I don't know who wrote this, but it wasn't you. Yeah, and it takes me a while to give my, I almost have to sneak up on it. Like, and she sometimes has to kind of like push me a little bit and go, like, this is boring. Like, why are you writing so safe? Like, this isn't you say way funnier things around the house, but then I sit down, I'm like, no, I gotta be a serious author. This is the this is the and so I would even say that with social media, I find that sometimes like some of my social media, I'm like, man, that was so boring. It was so safe. It wasn't the thing I wanted to say or felt like saying. I feel I feel like when people go find your voice, I I don't think it's a one-time thing. For me, it's often every hour. I'm I'm kind of I'm giving it away and then I'm pulling it back. I'm giving it away and I'm pulling it back. I that's something I as a writer, I I think that I do struggle with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, excellent.
SPEAKER_00If you could fix that in this uh podcast, that'd be great, James. If you go ahead and change that as a as a wise uh creative guru. If you give me like a short pithy statement, um, that would be helpful.
SPEAKER_02That would be uh John, you're enough.
SPEAKER_00Get over it. There you go. There you go. See, Jay, and then your cool signature. Nice.
SPEAKER_02Too much thinking, too much thinking. Yeah, no, not me. Too much thinking, hell no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, imagine.
Perfectionism Procrastination And Feedback
SPEAKER_02Um, your newest book, uh procrastination proof, never get stuck again. Um what role does perfectionism play in that?
SPEAKER_00A huge one. It's one of the reasons that'll stop you from ever starting. The the belief that it won't be as good as you want it to be. Um and and the reality is that's true. Like one of the soundtracks I tell people all the time is be brave enough to be bad at something new. Be brave enough to be bad at something new because we have, especially perfectionists, have this belief they'll be amazing right out of the gate. And I saw this in COVID all the time. I'd have young moms tell me, Oh, I'm terrible at virtual schooling, I'm terrible at homeschooling. I go, Yeah, you probably suck at hang gliding too. And they'd go, What? I'm like, you've never hang glided, like you've never virtual schooled. And the worst time to learn a new skill is during a global pandemic. So for me, perfectionism is a big, is a big, big part of it. And I would say, like, there's there, I write the books about talk topics I struggle with. So, what often my writing process is I find something I want to tweak in my life, like maybe not fix. Let's not be crazy. Like, I want to tweak it, I want to get better at it. And I go, Oh, let me see if I can actually do that. And then if it works, then I go see, do other people have this thing too? And then I create a book out of it and test it and all the stuff. But like perfectionism, same thing, procrastination. I wrote overthinking because I'm an overthinker. I like, I don't know about you. I like books when the author is in the book. Like, I like to see, I, you know, I've read books where, like, man, it was topical and I didn't feel like he or she had skin in the game, and or it felt like they had solved this and had only been winning for the last 20 years. I'd much rather go, like, oh man, here's here's where I'm struggling with this perfectionism. I'm trying to grow my business right now, for instance, and my perfectionism is like going crazy. Because to grow a business involves other people, and you have to open your hands and you have to be, and then the other thing, dude, the thing I'm really struggling with is admitting what I want. Like admitting what I want and going, this is what I want to happen, or this is the dream. Man, that's a that's a hard because I've just it's just been me and my assistant for 10 years, and now it's me and my assistant and a number of other people, and I can see perfectionism. That dragon has woken up uh in the last 18 months.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I I never realized I was a closet perfectionist until I wrote Effect Perfection. But it's it's it's been it's been extremely freeing to let that let that bullshit go.
SPEAKER_00Does it come back up ever? Does it always does it try to yeah, and I and I laugh now. I just go see, I wouldn't have labeled you a perfectionist either because you're so productive. Your style, I'm sure, is looks loose on the outside and is super deliberate on the inside.
SPEAKER_02Sure, sure. So sure. And you know, I mean, I try to not I try not to do three, four, five, six, seven different, you know, versions of because every version past the first, I'm judging.
SPEAKER_00Ah, that's good, dude. Right?
SPEAKER_02That's comparing it. I'm now I now I'm seeking, and it's like uh get over it.
SPEAKER_00Eric, that's good. That that should go in a book. Was that have you written that before?
SPEAKER_02Not yet. I'm writing I'm I'm on a new book right now. Uh and and I say that, meaning I've designed the cover, the publisher's like, let's go. And um, so now I have to sit down and actually write it.
SPEAKER_00When is it due?
SPEAKER_02Uh now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we you know, I gotta I've gotta work with them and and set it, set it set a uh a new deadline because you know, without deadlines, you know, nothing happens. Yeah, totally. Um I was I was looking at your uh your Instagram and I found something that I really dug, and you uh you're walking and chatting, which I really love these these kind of hey, out of thought moments that you do. And um you said, you know, everyone says they're doing the best they can. And you reply and you say everybody is doing the best they think they can. Right. Um, are you, John, doing the best you can?
SPEAKER_00Um, no, I don't I don't think so. And the reason I'd say that is I have like the president of my company, he'll pull even better out of me. So, an example, here's a silly example. So a couple months ago, I spoke at a software company in Orlando, standing ovation. And I don't get a ton of standing ovations just because I don't my speeches aren't structured where the end is like, and then I saved the puppy, and I walk off stage, we're going, the puppy, the puppy from the start got saved at the end, which is not how I structure my speeches. But I got a standing ovation. We're at the airport half an hour later, and he goes, Hey, there's three things I think you can do better. And my initial ego kind of like dark side was like, What are you even talking about? I got a standing ovation. This is the best ever. But fortunately, I listened to him because I trust him, and he was right. He was like, Hey, this one section you really rushed. Like, hey, I think you have too much content in this section. Hey, that part felt memorized, not not delivered organically. And like he gave me some great feedback. So I would have been sitting in that airport very confidently thinking, I just did the best I can. And then he gave me some feedback, and I realized, oh, there's other things for me to learn. Um, and so I think the the challenge for create, I mean, one of them for creating art is like the being satisfied with what you've done and also knowing I've got more in the tank. You told me during our call, are you good at celebrating? I was like, I'm terrible. And you said, I want you to go thank each of those books you've written that's on your shelf. Like, go put your hand on each book and be like, hey, thank you. Like, thank you. That was, and I thought that was a good way to kind of go, like, no, this thing, like, this thing worked, and I got it out into the world, and it's helping people in ways I'll I don't know, you know. And so I wouldn't say I'm doing the best I can just because I have friends, even today. I do this workout called F3, which is in the mornings outside 5 30 a.m., um, rain or shine. And I was doing the easy version of an exercise, and one of my buddies was like, Come on, dude, you got this. And then I did the harder version. I had gotten to my comfort level and said, This is all I'm capable of. And this person said, No, I think you you got that. Like he, it was such a light calling, but I was able to answer it and then do the thing. And so I just I have too many examples of that in my own life. Um, the challenge again is though, being satisfied when you do celebrate something, when you do, so that you're, I would say, as a perfectionist, I move on to the next thing so quickly. And if you lead a team that way, you destroy the team because they don't get to celebrate at all. They feel like you're disappointed because you're already going, here's how it could have been better. Yeah. And it's just not a great way to lead. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think uh I think the answer to or part of the answer to that sitting in the airport moment after is is trying to find the joy in both of those answers.
SPEAKER_00Don't you feel like life is a lot of life is holding two seemingly opposite things in your hands at the same time?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Like where it's like, okay, these are these feel like I this is a both and situation. Um, there's a lot of my life I'm noticing is like that right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, I've always told, and even when I was teaching at the uh at the School of Visual Arts in New York, I would talk to my students about this idea. Um, and it's it it goes like this I care, but not that much. Because I can't, I can't it'll kill me. It'll kill me. I am a sensitive motherfucker. I I take things in deeply and I and I cannot let it destroy me. That's good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I need that one because I think with perf what I've said to perfectionists is I don't agree with the line that's like how you do anything is how you do everything, because that is a perfectionist's mantra, meaning, like, okay, that everything needs a plus. And like the reality is some things need B minus because that's what you've got to give to that moment, and that's all that's and I actually had a creative director teach me that. I worked at Home Depot corporate, and I had two projects. One was a postcard for a rug sale, and one was like a 96-page catalog. And I was putting so much creative energy on this postcard, and she came over and was like, Hey, no offense, that thing is gonna be forgotten the second it leaves this building. The headline is buy one, get one free rugs this Labor Day. That's it, move on. This other project you need to pour yourself into, and that helped me as an artist go, Oh, it's not about me coming up with 10 like Picasso Hemingway worthy headlines like for this card. I care, but not that much. And nobody else needs me to care that much, and I'm missing the point.
SPEAKER_02And nobody else cares as much as you do anyway.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. My yeah, the level, the level, that's the other thing. Like the level you bring to your stuff is is always, you know, your stuff is always different than somebody else's level they're gonna bring to your stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
Platform Integrity And A Beautiful Future
SPEAKER_02Um you, John, have built a large platform, um, and you've been um very intentional about your audience and very intentional about staying broad. Um is that a I mean, I'm assuming that's a conscious decision. Um, and do you believe that public voices like yours and like mine can help the world in like in these troubled times?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I would say it is deliberate. Um, it's harder. I would say I do agree with people that like, hey, you got to figure out your niche. I don't agree you need to niche so far down. It's like you need to write books for redheaded uncles that have mustaches and are struggling with taxes. Like, I don't that feels creatively constrictive to me. So I've always part of the reason I've gone broad is I want to be able to creatively explore a lot of things. Like I'm a dad and I raise my kids a certain way. What if we did a teen book? Like, cool, like I had a career. What if I wrote a career book? So I've kind of I wanted to explore a lot of things creatively. The second reason I've kept it broad is I want to talk to a lot of people. I love the challenge, James, James, of like last week I spoke on Wednesday to 4,000 cattle ranchers, and then on Thursday to a hundred hospital executives. Those are very different audiences. But if you can find the human heart side of it, you can talk to anybody you want. So that's broad, but I'm trying to go, what are they struggling with in this in this room with the cattle ranchers? What are the hospital executives struggling with? So I like that. And then I would just say the the thing I think about um with how you help the world is just how do you use your voice in an authentic way? I don't, you know, I think there's great ways to do it. I think there's ways where I go, I don't think that person authentically cares about that thing. They care about looking like they care about that thing. And so for me, I would say a lot of my kind of how I speak about the world or issues that I get involved in is usually, you know, like boots on the ground. So like if I go, like Thistle Farms is a great nonprofit in Nashville that does um, they have a two-year rehab program for women uh escaping sex trafficking and prostitution and drug addiction. Like we do fundraisers for them or we volunteer there. Like that's how I tend to use my influence is I get my audience to go, hey, we can probably get a thousand candles sold, which gets four women into the program because I have a platform. What would that look like? Or hey, like we built two kindergartens in Vietnam once um for my blog readers. And that was like, hey, let's what if we built what if we did that? Like, what would that so I love mobilizing uh my audience that way around something that I genuinely believe in?
SPEAKER_02I know for a fact that um the way I choose to use my voice, the way I choose to use my work and my platform has cost me um commercially, uh audience-wise. Um do you have an uh is there a cost for you of having an opinion?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, part of it, like when I say I'm a Christian, I know that comes with baggage. I know for some people when they hear that, there's automatic labels that come with that or automatic concerns. Like, and I don't I'm not saying those are not justified. I think there's there's plenty of things you could point a finger at. Um, so I would say the if you said to me, what is the thing that like I'm being more and more open about, I would say my faith, like, because it is a big part of my life. And I understand that for a lot of people, that's not one, they might go, you ask me what's weird. It's like I believe Jesus. Like, I'm crazy about Jesus. Like, that's a weird thing for a lot of people. So I would say that. Um, and then I would say, like, specifically, I remember I once insulted uh a specific car manufacturer and I lost an event. And I didn't even know I was even up for the event. I just didn't like their Super Bowl commercial, and I said something about the Super Bowl commercial. This is like 10 years ago, and so yeah, I'm conscious of that. Of like, okay, and then like what I would say there to that particular case is one, was that tweet worth that event? It wasn't like I didn't say to my wife, hey, don't worry, like that tweet was awesome, like it was so 17 people hearted it. That wasn't an example where I felt like if I don't say something about this Super Bowl commercial, I'm not gonna be able to tuck my kids into bed at night and let them know their dad has a voice. That was just me being a snarky like guy responding on the internet, but it also taught me the lesson of like, oh, okay, like people are watching. How do I be smart about it? How do and then also like I guess I use I don't see social media always as where I'm gonna have deep, heartfelt conversations. Like, I love having people that are the opposite of me in my life to go, hey, because where I live in Nashville can become a very, like, very kind of tight bubble. And so to have friends that are like, oh, they're the opposite of me in every possible way. And here's here's what they believe, and here's why they believe it. I think the work, one of the worst parts of the internet is it flatten people into ideas, not individuals. So you'll see people go, Well, I hate that type of person. You'll go, what about Mark your neighbor? You go, Oh, yeah, yeah, Mark's great. He borrowed my lawnmower the other day. And you're like, Well, Mark is that type of person. Like, no, no, no. So I don't, for me on the internet, I'm kind of I don't ask the internet to be the place where I get to have those heartfelt things. And I ask offline to be like, oh yeah, this is where I stay honest about what I'm being challenged on.
SPEAKER_02Cool. Thank you. Um, last question, John. Um describe to me a beautiful future.
SPEAKER_00For me or for the world, or it doesn't matter. Beautiful future. Um yeah, beautiful future. I mean, the one I think about is like, man, I would love to get to know some grandkids. Like, I'll never put that pressure on my own kids, but like, man, I would love to see them happily married, um, in stable relationships, um, in jobs that are, you know, challenge them and encourage them, um, in cities that I don't live too far away from. Um, you know, I for me, that I would say that's one of the things that I push back on on hustle culture. I think there's a lot of hustle culture that's like, you got to do this instead of kids. And man, having kids is the deepest joy. It's the deepest heartbreak, too, because the older they get, the more, the less control you have. Or I'll just tell you, like, because I'm I'm a little ahead. I asked somebody older than me who has like kids in their late 20s, early 30s. I said, it feels like it's harder now than when they were young. And he said, Well, the stakes are different. I said, What do you mean? He said, When your eighth grader gets cut from the volleyball team, that's sad. When your 28-year-old gets a divorce, that's tragic. And so, like, man, my kids have really opened my hands to feel and express and experience in ways I never would have imagined. So, yeah, when I think about a future, I think about my kids, I think about my wife, um, I think about how we're spending our time, um, and you know, how we're how we're stewarding this opportunity. I feel very fortunate that when you and I, like the reality is when you give somebody writing encouragement, that has a weight to it. When I give somebody writing encouragement that has a weight to it. So I have on my wall uh a message from Stephen Pressfield, probably 14 years old, where 14 years ago, where I sent him a book to endorse and he wrote the kindest thing back. Like just, and it it gave me like three years of runway of hope that maybe I could be a writer. And so now I'm like, man, I get to do that because people look at me and go, You've you've done this thing, like your words have a different weight. I look at the future and go, what would that look like? What does it look like, you know, for James to have a CEO that comes in and doesn't know they're really an artist, and you get to speak that into like that's powerful, dude. And that you can't really put a price on that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh John, thank you for a beautiful conversation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're the best, dude. You're the best. I feel so uh encouraged when we get to talk. Um, and it's been too long since you've been on my podcast. So if you're ever in Nashville, we have a studio now. This is an open invitation. I'd love to have we'd be in the same room. I think it's possible. I'd love to have you in the studio.
SPEAKER_02Cool. Well, I'll let you know.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Thanks, James.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much.