Episode 83: The Process Is All We Have

You can work 12 hours a day and still feel like you did “nothing” except survive.

That’s where we start: the grind language, the imaginary race, and the habit of powering through exhaustion like it’s a virtue. We talk candidly about burnout, creative stress, and why building a beautiful life takes a different mindset than simply forcing more output.

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Transcript

Why This Coaching Call Exists

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So there's a reason why I have a podcast. And there's a reason why I don't just stay in my studio, hunker down, make a lot of work for myself and for clients. And the reason is that I know how hard it is. I know how hard it is to be creative. I know how hard it is to know that you were a creative kid and fought for your creativity through your whole life. You went to a creative school, got a creative job, and then you wake up one day and you realize it's actually just a job. And I want to help that. I want to help you. So I heard from a number of you last time I recorded one of my coaching calls. That um heard from so many of you that I thought I'd do another or another piece of another call. So here today, I'm sharing that with you. My guest and I hit a lot of different points this time. And I hope it's of service to you. And let me know if you need help, because I want to be there for you. More than just some disconnected, sexy voice. Okay, so we're just gonna um right after the move music, we're just gonna jump into this. Let's do this.

The "Candy Ass" Work Myth

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Uh like setting up the type and then printing it with ink, they did a workshop and they made that for me. And I said, Oh, this is awesome. And they said, Because you always say that. And I had no idea I I always say, Don't be a candy ass.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

You know, that's interesting because that was actually one of the first things I wanted to talk about. That okay, you know, as I said previously, you you um I I sent you just a little, hey Randall, check it in, what's up? And and you sent me back this fantastic fucking letter. And but one of the things that you said, and one of the things that comes up often, and you just reiterated it now with that sign, is that idea of um of and what you said in your letter was powering through exhaustion. Yeah. And you know, I would I would try to direct yourself, direct you away from forcing yourself to work harder. Okay. You know what I mean? I mean, I think, I mean, I completely understand where you're coming from. I I um when I don't have the kids with me, I get up at 4 30 in the morning. And like two days ago, I was up at 4 30 in the morning. The only thing I did outside of be here and work was uh go to the gym, maybe the grocery store. And then at like nine o'clock at night, I'm I'm I just look around and it's dark outside, and I just start laughing. And I'm like, Jim Bob, what up? What up? You ain't done nothing all day except fucking work. Right. Like, like, you know, is it a race? Is it a race? You know, so I want to I want to kind of help you kind of get that. Um okay, good. Where where you're where you're not just like forcing yourself to work harder, but where you understand that you're trying to um build a life and become more fully yourself. Correct. It's a it's a it's a different, it's a different mindset and it's a different path. And I think it's important for you to see that. Yeah. Well, I'm often, I often, even in writing, I've I've called myself a meat grinder. Right? It's just like I'm gonna force this through, I'm gonna make this shit all happen now. Yeah. And and um it doesn't have to be like that, or at least it doesn't have to feel like that. You know, I often I often I often try to see life as a race, and and then I look around, I'm like, oh, nobody else is in the race but me. Oh shit. Okay, so I really want to start, you know, and there's some stuff I want to talk to, you know, stuff that'll come up today, but um, um I want to get that warfare competition language, yeah, out, gone. I think it's I think that's uber important. Um, hey, do you got questions? Because I've got a bunch of stuff that you wrote to me and I'd like to talk about, but I do have some questions.

AI And The Beige Future

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Lately, I've been struggling with uh lately I've been struggling with I've been maybe indulging a little bit too much into the argument of AI or not AI, and um just because it's so it's so omnipresent in my life.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Where's being forced on you at work, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Correct, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there's a a guy that works with our sister company that's really all systems go on the AI to build stuff, and um and which is cool. Um, he's building systems and things like that, but at the same time, I just don't know where I'm at with it, even even if it was I didn't have philosophical problems with it, there's still this environmental thing that's nagging a little bit, and you know, I mean, there's it's so multifaceted, and when I'm I was on a call yesterday, and just I do what I do, I just talk how I talk, and I was talking to the client about I think I love the the debate about AI because it's really not about AI, it the debate is really about culturally when we make an advertisement as a human being, we add a little extra cultural zest to that instead of being just a shitty ass ad that's gonna be around town. We add in we though like advertisements, whether we like it or not, actually makes a lot of the culture in our country, you know. And so once we give that job to AI, who's setting the culture?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yes, yes, it's the it's it's the um the blanding, yeah, it's the beige the beige of everything. Um, and this realization for you is super important because and it's something that you have to you need to start talking about, you know, whether your attitude about it is going to change at the workplace, who the fuck cares? Really, right? I mean, really, right? Um, you can just do what a lot of people do, is which is just like, you know, um uh you know, make the boss happy, do the work, and stop giving a shit. Yeah. If if if you can't have the conversations with them, if you can't, if you can't have the conversations with them and say, you know, I this is how it goes for me. It's like I see what you want. And this is you talking to your your boss or your client. I see what you want. I understand. But I also see past that, and I see the audience, and the audience is human, and I see understand what they want, and they want someone to speak honestly to them, you know, because because in the end, what you what you randle are discovering is that uh personality matters and taste matters and humanity matters and weirdness, you know, you have your own fucking particular weirdness that matters, right? Right, and this is this this is the beginning of this is the beginning of, you know, and you've you've mentioned it before, this is the beginning of your new chapter. Yeah, right, right. I mean, I don't think you're thinking is the seat you're sitting in right now. Correct. Seat you're sitting in right now is a test. Yeah. You know, and and I think I think you should take take care of that seat and do the best you can, but I think you should also um ride the horse in the direction it's going.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Right? Because when we stop riding the horse in the direction it's going, it adds further stress.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

You know, and there's personal things that I want to down the, you know, a little bit of the future of this conversation, uh personal things that I want you to start thinking about or doing so you can so you can handle that stress better, so you can so you can have an outlet for this, this, you know, or uh, or a base plate for this new this foundation of you know of Randall, you know?

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Beautiful. No, I that would be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Because you know, like I know, and I'm this is why I'm this is why I'm pushing this um this uh AI um uh webinar, is um, you know, we both know that the the the AI proof or the future-proof creative um is the human one. It's the it's it's the one who loves, you know, and still remembers craft and skill and and and that that um you know I wrote about it just recently and I said, you know, the things that AI can't do, and it can't affect perfection. It can't, you know, it can't um see the wrongest answer. It doesn't understand why one color would be better than another, or why one color would be wrong, and that's the perfect way to use it, you know, to have a blue sheep makes sense in this situation, right? That kind of thing. Right. Um, so you know, you know that, and and but I'd also don't want you beating your head up against your job, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Well, it it's the one of the crazier parts about AI now is I'm actually thinking about building into our processes, our branding processes, when the client comes back with a fucking AI logo of their own. Because that's a really big part of our day-to-day now, where it's like, oh, I took yours and then I put it in AI and now look at this. And it's like, holy fuck, is this real? I mean, it and it is, and so I'm I guess part of me is a little bit curious how far where where do I end and my job just kind of begins, you know, where it's like, okay, do you do you love it? Do we just you know, yeah, do we just cash the check?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Um is your name on the door?

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Right. It's not. Well, I mean, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

You know, I mean, you I think I think you're a strong, smart guy. I think anybody would be fucking lucky to, you know, to have you um, you know, uh uh in their corner. Have you, you know, that you got your their back. Um, but again, I think I think swimming up river is a bad idea.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I think fighting, um, you know, finding finding the battles that you can that you can that you can win and go through. Keep being that I was gonna say, I was gonna say elbow in the ribs, that you know, thorn in the side, but it's not even that. It's this, it's this keep bringing back this humanity and this beauty to it, to the conversation. And you know, because no one's gonna go, oh no, here he is with that humanity thing. Oh he's gonna talk about being you know, generosa shit.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

It's so true. It is, it is, I and I do say on the front side before every relationship with an advisor, and uh most of the time we'll do rebrands for them, we'll do a brand refresh at the very least. Um, and I'll say, hey, I can only help you as much as you're willing to be helped, not unlike their clients who will sometimes they just don't accept their financial plans. It's like as open, I can only help you as open as you're going to be about this.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

And yeah, I mean, I think uh you know, that's awesome because you're already trying to have the education process with them, and that's that's part of your role.

Set Boundaries And Show One

SPEAKER_00 13:06

But again, so so when I when I was uh when I was coming up through New York and I was um primarily a book jacket designer. That's you know, that's where I started book jackets. And I learned that I hated the revision process. You know, I learned that I learned that I hated the process of like, well, you show them three covers up front, and then they and then they be and and the downside of that is they they just Frankenstein it. They're like, I like to type on this one, I like the image with that one, let's put it together. Um, right. So I just started showing one. And I didn't want to do the the million revisions. Um and somebody actually somebody on LinkedIn just wrote to me today and said, you know, well, well, you could use AI to, you know, to to do those 15 billboard revisions. And I'm like, no, why are you even admitting to or saying yes to 15 different revisions because it's completely random? And that was and that was my argument with with you know the other designers who would go through these, are they paying you 15 times? I don't understand this. Yeah, like it's gone. So, you know, um and how we have to be in control of that, and we have to kind of set our own boundaries of what we what we will do and what we won't do. Um, and you know, I get it that uh that AI can do it, you know, fast and cheap. And if somebody wants that, then somebody wants that, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Well, okay, James, tell me about when you were a book jacket designer and you made them just one. How how one, how was that received? But two, how did you navigate when they wanted to go through a revision process?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Um, you know, they have to be clear about what they what they're looking for. Yeah. Um and that's this is where I came up with the expression that I say there are some jobs you do for God and some jobs you do for money. Well, I I approached everything as a God job, a lowercase g, mind you, but a god job opportunity to do greatness, to try something new, to do something I haven't done before, you know. Um, and when it turned into a money job, I got it done and and took my name off of it.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Right. You just you just you just, you know, you understand you understand the the limitations and you try to ride the horse in the direction it's going. But I actually became extremely lucky with showing one. Um, and then on top of that, carry that on for a couple of years, and I created a reputation, and people would, you know, work with me because they trusted me.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

And I think that's part of our job is to make those decisions for people. You know, why did you hire me? Because you can just get six different ideas from you know, from anybody. Correct. And I have told people before, um, especially back then, I'm like, I am a gushing fountain of creativity. I can give you 30 ideas, but at some point, somebody's gonna have to make a decision. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Correct. That's awesome. All right, yep, that's those were kind of my questions so far. Um, yeah, if you want to go through the email, that'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Um, yeah, that like I said, the biggest thing, the biggest thing was the beating your head against the wall, the uh, you know, making your turning your your your job and your creativity into uh an endurance sport, you know. Right. You know, the powering through exhaustion, those are your words. Um it it it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It's it's like you can't force yourself to work harder. You gotta figure out figure out you know where your energy is and use that energy to you know to to um make a beautiful life.

Do What Makes Your Heart Happy

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

I had a I had a I was running a class yesterday and I had a I had a group of people in a in a group class and um it was getting dark because it was all like AI and politics and stuff. And I'm like, okay, guys, here is your mantra for the rest of the day. Do what makes you happy. Find out what makes you happy, find out what makes your heart happy, and then do that thing. And and you know, take a deep breath and then go, you know, do that thing. Because I mean, you know, for me, James Victoria, I gotta list, uh, you know, as long as my wall of to-dos, I could just I could just go, okay, I got that done. Oh, I gotta do that tax thing, oh, I gotta do this thing, I gotta, oh, I gotta get back to that person, you know. Um at some point you gotta kind of just do what makes you happy. And I often for me, it's just like um just leave without my phone, go for a walk in the rain, right? Take a break, take a break or do some push-ups or something, you know?

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah. So it's interesting.

Sketchbook Play Beats Screen Rot

SPEAKER_02 18:12

So I read um I read this article about how doom scrolling shrinks the gray matter of your in your brain. Oh fucking. And then and then I read about some of the side effects of of AI and even and even just digital looking at a screen all the time, and it was horrifying, right? So last night I was like, Oh, I'm gonna sketch on my iPad, and then I read this and I was like, holy fuck! So I grabbed a sketchbook, and this is something that I did because you said it, because you were talking about how referential everything is. So I grabbed my paper sketchbook and my pencils, and I started drawing, and I, you know, at and I was just a stream of conscious drawing, and it was it felt really good, it felt really in the in the moment, it felt fun. And at one point, I decided I was gonna draw a snake's head, right? And my my knee-jerk reaction was I should Google uh and look at snakes' heads so I get this anatomically correct, and then I thought, why the fuck would I want it to be anatomically? Who gives a shit? If like I've I'm 48 years old, I've probably seen a couple hundred thousand images of snakes in my life, so I just drew what I felt like a snake looked like, and the interesting part to me was it looked more like a snake than if it was anatomically correct, correct, correct, correct.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Because there's an aha to it. And and first of all, AI doesn't have the aha. Uh, you know, AI wants to go straight to satisfy, you know, straight to referencing. But what we can what we, you know, but what we bring to that is is that childlike play.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

You know, and and if it for me, I want my images and I want my type to skate to the edge of legibility. I don't want anybody to look at it, look at my snake and say, well, that's a quite a fine turtle you have there, right? But but but I but yes, I want that the wrongness that makes it so yeah, that's awesome. And it's funny because one of the things I was gonna say when you said you started sketching is it is a suggestion of how to kind of like one way that that that um I really like to play is just get a you know your pen or your pencil, whatever you like working with, big piece of paper. And the first thing you do is like close your eyes and just make a scribble. And then when you open your eyes, make that into something. Maybe maybe turn it upside down, and then you can you can actually start, oh, like, oh, there's a face, or oh, there's a tomato on a vine, or there, you know what I mean? Like turned it into, and sometimes it's type, sometimes it's words, sometimes it's just like filling in different parts reveals something. You know, there's there's this there's this aha, there's finding, there's this searching and finding, and and and that's that is a good exercise for our brain because that contradicts the you know the brain rot that happens from you know staring at screens all day.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Right. No, I will do that. That sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

You know, my friend, my friend uh Tina, who runs Creative Mornings, she's just started some directive where she's going back and you know, and she's you know, around my age, and she's going back to like pulling out a sketchbook every day and just drawing. She's like, Oh my god, I haven't had art school Tina in a long time. So we're gonna go back. And that is the fucking future. That's the future, and that's that's what I'm pushing for. I want to be involved in that future. I want to be involved in, you know, craft. I was writing about it earlier this morning and I was thinking about um response to someone saying, well, you know, AI is just it's a tool like a camera. And, you know, and you know, and um I wanted to start writing about um how we've lost a lot of skills.

unknown 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Because it's not just a it's not just a tool, it's a thinking machine, right? And it gives us thoughts and it gives us things that that um that we need to we need to create on our own. We need to think about on our own. Um it's like it's like if I went into AI and I said, uh, you know, uh my kids are doing this thing, how should I react to that?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Right. I uh it you know, it takes the fun out of it for us. Yeah. The fun of figuring it out. You know, I just recently heard someone say, someone say, you know, AI and creativity takes the pleasure out of it because what you experienced in that snake was the pleasure. Yeah, AI doesn't have that. And they said they said that's like letting AI eat your ice cream, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Right, it's so true, and at a certain point, I was like, Well, snakes have scales, so so I should do that, and then I felt, yeah, but I one, I don't want to fucking do that, I don't want my snake to have scales because that's laborious. But two, I was like, why? And it's interesting as human beings, we can edit out the things that make sense and say, No, I want it to make less sense. This is about having fun, yeah, yeah.

Making Art For Real People

SPEAKER_00 23:42

I I was in um Düsseldorf, Germany recently, and I did a super smart thing. And from stage, I said, Hey, I'm gonna be doing drawings for people after this talk. There's a table outside, I brought all my pens, and I did like fucking 60. You know, I just sat there for you know hours and just did all that things. And it was funny because some some people said, Hey, I want to, it was very emotional. Yeah, because it was like they they they were experiencing this thing, and that was that was moving, or they'd say, Hey, my son is turning nine, and I want to say something. He's a little shy. I'd like to, and I'm like, okay, how about this? What if we what do you want to say to your son? And here's what if we say this, and then but to but to your point, one thing that somebody came to me and they said they said, I'm a unicorn, and I was like, Okay, she said, Can you make me? I said, Yes, I can make you a unicorn, and I can't draw unicorns, so I drew a stick figure, unicorn with a very colorful horn, but it was just a simple unicorn, and then what I did, what I always did is, and there was a little arrow pointing to it, and it said unicorn. And then I wrote her name in a beautiful fashion, uh, you know, above and below, and and she loved it because it's the aha, yeah. Why, why, you know, you can find glorious unicorns on the internet, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

And what makes the unicorn a unicorn? Yeah, right. Spend way more time on the horn and then label it.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, label it. Put a label underneath it.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

That's fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Uh so yeah, I think the drawing experience, the drawing, the drawing things are something that you should, you know, set aside maybe the beginning of every day or when you get to your desk. Yeah. Get to your desk 10 minutes earlier. Have a little, you know, I use these little flip notebooks, little flip um this size of those little notebooks. And you know, they're great. They're great. You can carry them in your pocket.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Just, you know, just do that. But I think it should be a regular thing for you. I think it should be a regular process, just like telling yourself to to to relax, it's not a competition.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah. Just in the breathing. The thing about that drawing that I did last night was I was exhausted when I got home from work, as I am every day. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'll just, I'll just play around in the sketchbook and I won't be looking at a screen, it'll be great. And so I started doing that. And by the time I'd finished that drawing, I felt amazing. I actually wasn't tired anymore, and it was pretty late. It was like 11:30, 12:30 at night, and I was like, shit, I gotta get to bed. But I was I just felt so good. You know, it's almost like I was totally re-energized. I could have done another shift.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Right

Get A Free Coaching Call

SPEAKER_00 26:42

now, you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victory could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish he was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to your work is a gift.com. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out, but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to your workoft.com. Let's talk.

Healing Without Accepting Walking Pain

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Um, how's your how's your physical? Your physical in this it's good.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

I so I smashed my shoulder. It was right after I got back from the funeral. I was gonna do some jogging because my heart felt weird, and I think a lot of that's just anxiety. So I was like, I'm gonna go for a run and uh see how this goes. And I was I made it about a half a block before I tripped on the concrete. And when I landed on my shoulder, it felt like it sounded like I landed on a box of like fruity pebbles.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

It was just like I know that sound.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Yeah, so I it was painful. I went to the emergency room. There was nothing structurally wrong. They got me set up with some physical therapy. Um, I have most of the mobility back in it at this point. I just the doctor said, Look, man, it was smart to wait two weeks to set set up this appointment. It's gonna it's healed as much as it's gonna um get some physical therapy, it should get you the rest of the way.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Cool, cool. Well, I will tell you, you know, physical therapy and uh and uh exercise, you can get your, you know, the body's made to heal. Yeah, you can get your body back to, you know, even even more than it was. Like right now, my body is stronger than it's been in freaking years. But like five years ago, five years ago, I had that same that same situation where I had an accident, fell on my on my shoulder, and I broke my collarbone and and all of all of my ribs on my right side, like all of them. And it was literally like that sound where if you took a bundle of sticks and just went snapped it, right? Um, but the bodies may be here, so you know, um you know, stay stay on that. Um, you know, and that's the thing, most most people will get to a certain point and then just accept that a certain level of pain.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

I call it walking pain. As long as they can get around, they're fine. But that means that means you're hobbling. And and and this applies to your spirit as well as your creativity, right? Well, my job my job won't let me do this thing, so I guess I'll just accept this level of where I am now, and I won't ever and I'm like that's you know, no, that's not cool. Yeah, you know, because you're selling off the best parts of you. So so pay attention to that stuff. We'll do. There's a there there was another line in in what you wrote, um, um a piece of information that you left.

Stop Giving Loved Ones Leftovers

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Um, I tell me if you want to talk about this. I do not want the the people I love getting the leftovers.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yeah, yeah, I do want to talk about that. That was um, so I I did that funeral and um and it was tough. And it, you know, obviously the funeral, I was really reflective about it, and I had known for a long time that when I mean I work it, I do an hour commute each day. I'm probably working 12 hours a day with the commute, right? Um, and when I get home, I'm exhausted. And I've known for a long time that I'm not a hundred percent at my best when I get home from work, but I try to engage with Holly, with the kids, um, and be the very best I can be. But you know, I after that funeral, I just came to the realization that it's it's not fair. And it's and and somehow it's it's selfish of me to do. Um, because it's not like at right now, I I realize that I have a choice. I am the breadwinner in the home, but at the same time, I didn't feel like I was actively pursuing the solution enough.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Whereas like I mean, the sooner I can get there and make some money on this business, the sooner I they can get the best of me. You know, because and then I'm living living my purpose, like it's like that drawing that I told you that I did yesterday. I felt amazing. Imagine if I felt like that every day when I got home.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I would be lying to say you can, and I'd be lying to say you can't, right? Right. You know that. Um first of all, to go backwards a little bit, um, you know, that's just that is some that is some awesome information to get on yourself. And sometimes, oftentimes, it takes something severe like a death for us to realize that. And but but Randall, what most people do is they suppress that and go back to numb again, right? Right, and and and and the problem is that that doesn't help anybody. So um I think I think what you're doing with this process, with our process, is trying to reorganize your priorities. Um, I think you should have a I think you should have a conversation at home and say, hey, you know, this is something I've realized. And I apologize. And, you know, I want this is what this is this is what I this is what I would like.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

And you know, um, those those kind of conversations are super important. Super important. I think I think most relationships, I think most relationships need one more conversation and two more naps. Right. Right. Yeah. Um yeah, yeah. So you're you're you know, you you're from the accident and from from you know that realization, you know, your body and your spirit are are trying to communicate with you. Yeah, you know, and and listen, you gotta listen to that.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yeah, well, and I feel like I've been on, I feel like that I've been on this path for a while. It's just it's interesting what is revealed to you along the way, right? Like we're talking, so I'm just way more introspective for the last couple of months, and then you know, a death in the family, and then yeah, I've just I've been more emotional lately. I've just been more. It seems like that the toxicity of that. I mean, I don't want to fucking put it like this, but years of sadness is almost like outgassing, exactly. You know, I'm just more emotional and more hopeful.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Exactly, exactly.

Solitude Needs Real Connection

SPEAKER_00 34:23

That's exactly the process, you know. And I'm I'm feeling it too. I'm feeling it too with you know, with me and my work and where I am, and uh and I'm trying to figure out how not to be on my own all day and uh not socialize because that's not cool, you know. Right, right. I mean, I love myself and I love my solitude, yeah. But yeah, we we need uh we need we need contact, we need we need connection. That's what art, that's what art is all about. And I'm like, my thing is like I use it as a uh there's a perfect word, and I can't think of it what is uh, you know, means means substitute. Me making art and sharing it out in the world is a substitute for relationships. It's like hey, I'm making connections, I'm connecting with people through my work, but you know, you know, but at the end of the day, I've got to like myself on the back.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Right. Right. Do you think that's why you just opened it up and drew those 60 drawings? Like, fuck I need to do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

That was so that was so context. That was so that was so great. That was so I want I now I'm trying to figure out how to do and I've got a talk coming up in Boulder uh next month, and I've already got in touch with them and said, Hey, let's do this thing. But that's awesome. But yeah, I I'm trying to figure out how to do it more because one, I like playing, two, I like an audience because I'm a show off, and three, I like I like people to have my work, yeah. So if I can figure that out, but I can't just like I just can't sit outside of the shopping center and say, eh, drawings, everyone get a drawing. I you know, it's not the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I well, I remember when you know it was probably 20 years ago now when you were doing the the plates. Oh, yeah, and and you were selling the plates, and I remember as a young designer, like watching this all happening from afar and thinking not even to people the people around me, just to myself, like, how the fuck is James doing this? He is how many of these one, how many of these plates does he have? But two, how is he? It's like you made such a demand for this for this plate, and I thought it was genius, you know, because like hey, check it out, and then you do the thing, and you here there's the plate. And I thought, this is fucking genius.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Um, yeah, I haven't made a plate in a long time. I gotta think about that. Thank you. God damn, another thing list.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, well, it was just so brilliant, and I like, and it was interesting how my mind worked around that. Like, does James have a fucking warehouse where he walks in and like grab a plate and here you go? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Like, that's exactly what you don't want because I want it to be I want it to be at, you know, I want it to be impromptu, I want it to be improv, I want it to be the act.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

So now I do sign in plates at restaurants and stealing them. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yeah, they're all stolen plates. I can hug listen, it's part of it. It's part of it. Why would I go and buy uh Creighton Barrel fucking yeah, right? First of all, plates are ugly, but restaurant plates are cool. So yeah, you know, invite me to dinner. We'll we'll you know, we'll go out to have a blast. I'll bring my pens.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Um something else uh a work-related question. You

The Real Joy Behind Design Work

SPEAKER_00 37:51

were that that um there was um a question I think I can't I can't really find it, but it was about um making as a uh as a it that it feels heavy. And and the moments that you it seemed like the moments that lit you up were when you talk about writing honestly and recording the podcast and discovering that stuff, that stuff. See again, that's the that's the that's the mantra of you know, well go make yourself happy, find what makes it, and then do that thing, you know? Yeah, because those are the those are the things that are you know that are gonna be the tools you carry from now on. And that's it's how we get away from the the the heaviness of it.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah, well, and I think for me, I I really wouldn't have known, and I would have had an answer though, but I wouldn't have really known, and I would have thought that it was creating creating logos, creating graphic design, um, making it look aesthetically pleasing to myself, really. But the truth is is what I really like about it and what I've gathered from and I think I've always known it, just never really verbalized it because you sound like such a fucking weirdo, but I like the I like the pursuit of the idea. I like the um it in yep, in drawing, I think is super fun, and I think the the sketches that I make all end up kind of looking like monster 90s comic book art, but in that I think is serving my childhood, but it's the pursuit of the idea, it's because that those ideas are you end up vetting it's like, oh well, do I believe this? And then you create a design around that where you're really forwarding the concept of that idea, and then it's and then sometimes you finish it and you're like, I actually don't fucking believe that. But it's the pursuit of the idea to get to your deeper truth, is what I really like about graphic design. And maybe I like ill, maybe it's uh maybe I actually like illustration with words. I'm not too sure. I don't really care, I don't really know what to call it, but I think defining it, it doesn't really matter to me. Kind of like that thing that you said to the guy, like, oh, you're one of those people who cares about shit like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Yeah, I don't think the definition is important to whether it's you know, uh the feeling is important, how it makes you feel is important.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Yeah, and and I think the deeper I get with this brand that I'm making, the deeper I get to fully realizing and be being able to verbalize my own truth. Yeah, and I think it's the pursuit of that that I think I really like about it in visualizing that.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Well, that's what we were saying earlier. The the um you know, um you know what we do takes time. Yeah, what we do takes time, it takes time, it takes thinking, and it takes wrong thinking, and you know, um, some guy wrote, some guy made a comment about you know how I sit with how I taught how I basically talk about AI. And some guys, some guy said said, Oh, you you fixate too much on the process. And I was like, but but but the process is all we have, you know. And then I, you know, and then of course I made the mistake of looking at his work and I'm like, oh, and you fixate on the end result, and your end result sucks because of that. Yeah, right. I didn't share that. But anyway, one of the things that I wanted another thing I wanted to present to you, one was like that, you know, the this the the snake drawing or or turning it even more loose where you don't have a you don't give yourself a yeah you know a um a directive. I'm going to draw I'm going to draw a snake. Um so you know, turning it into much more um free, like drawing either eyes closed or drawing scribbles and then you know turning the next stuff. Um there's something I want you to

The Freedom To Suck Practice

SPEAKER_00 42:22

think about. Do you ever you ever hear of like the how uh there's a really great story that goes around about Aerosmith, the band? Yeah, how they have they have monthly monthly meetings. Have you heard this? No, they have monthly investment group. They would have yeah, they would have monthly meetings. Well, they would obviously be in the studio, right? But they yeah, but every once in a while they would have a they would get in the studio and they would have it was it was called the freedom to suck. And it meant it meant just bring, don't be embarrassed. This is the time, this is the time where you can bring those stupid fucking words. Yeah, dude looks like a lady. What the hell is that, right? Just bring the dumb words, bring the dumb lip uh riffs, and and you know, let's give her give each other the freedom to suck. And I think that's something that you need to to do because I you should make more work that's not finished, that's not that's you know, that's that's you know, that's a big thing right there, not even finished, like why finished, right? That's a good thing, unapproved, you know, unauthorized, right? Lacking permission, all those things, even ugly, even ugly, just you know, and and and it's not to build your brand, although I think your brand is gonna come out of these.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah, yeah, I think so too. I think so too, because I've been playing around with as much as I like to fucking put a ton of detail into shit. I realize that you know, through our talking, through our through this sort of mentorship that I do. That to cover because to cover up the structural deficiencies of my own illustrations. I remember in college, I drew this drawing that I thought was fucking awesome. And I brought it to and one of the professors saw it and she said, and I probably spent 40 hours on this thing. And she looked at it and said, That's a nice sketch. And I was just like, What the fuck am I listening to? You know what I mean? I was so, and at that time, I was still, you know, I was newly sober. I was pretty uh not very put together, but I remember like almost being instantly triggered, like an emotional trigger, like my heart started racing. I blood rushed to my head, and I was just like, What the fuck kind of level of disrespect is that? And as much as I hated it, it has affected me since.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I know, I

Creative Trauma And Self Trust

SPEAKER_00 44:52

know. That's that that is called trauma, and that happens in the school situation often. It will ruin, it will ruin people, and they will carry it for the rest of their lives. No, it's it's it's it's terrible. And you have to give yourself the freedom to like know that that person was wrong, and you need to, you know, yeah, um, you need to uh uh apologize to yourself for listening and for for letting that you know piss in your yeah, and knowing that knowing that it's not right and knowing that knowing that you know like Anaya's nin said, you know, we don't see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are. Yeah, you know, I just I just commented unfortunately late at night when I wasn't at my best, but I commented on somebody, this woman who has like 500,000 followers, and I I don't know why she popped up on my Instagram, but she's sitting there in her living room with her finely decorated living room, and she's got holding her little fuzzy microphone, and she's saying, she's saying, Um, you know, uh, we are not we are not born creative, it is a it is a practice, blah blah blah. And I'm like, that is the most moronically blind statement about creativity I've ever fucking heard. Like, and I and I, but I this is the important part. I said, you are probably just talking about yourself, yeah, and that's how it works. That's how it works. So I don't know if you know, I'm gonna get my butt handed to me from my followers or not.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

It is so fucking I think I will survive, yeah. Right, right. I just listened to your podcast on purpose, and there was a lot that I loved about the podcast, and it felt like you uh you went off on some tangents. And I thought I was when I was listening to it, I thought this is why people listen to other people, and it's and and it might not necessarily be for the a information, like you did a podcast, and you're like, Yeah, this is about purpose, but it was the tangential things that you said, the weird, like the kind of the fucked up shit that you would bring up, and it that would be so human, and that's the stuff that I that I really gravitated towards. It was the James is going off on this, and I can't, and I'm just loving it, right? It's the essence of that rebellion. But yeah, I thought that was a great episode because it it was eye-opening to me when we think about it. Like, why was I bound to the rules of perfect anatomy in illustration? Like, in in my imperfections are consistent, they're consistent, they're omnipresent in my work. Yeah, and I was told not to have them.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. I I have a uh I have a um a I'll call it a book. It's some it's some mimeographed, not even Xerox, mimeographed pages from when I was in fifth grade, I think. Yeah. Um I was in a I was in a class that we made a storybook and we wrote stories and we illustrated them. And one of the, you know, I got to do the cover, which was of course moving for me and you know meant a lot. Um changed my life. But um I in in it there is a full-page drawing that I did of Captain America. And now I look back on it and I remember, I remember that drive, that that urge to draw Captain America the way Captain America looked. And I think that was the that's kind of like that kind of signals the end of creativity and the entering into like a uh um I don't know, a conformity, uh into a um restrictions and rules, which was interesting. Um, and one thing to go backwards, we were talking about you lightening up and doing these these 10-minute drawing sessions. Um and you would possibly, you know, one, you're building your brand in that, but I think you're also I think you're also rebuilding since we're talking about this. I think you're also re rebuilding the trust in yourself. Yeah, that's super important. That's awesome. That's awesome, dude.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Thank you. But and it's a little bit sad too, where it's like to be veered to be veered from from uh and you know, I'm not gonna blame anybody but myself for this, where it's like to have weighted somebody else's opinion so heavily that I was chasing something that wasn't mine for 20 fucking years, you know. Like that's the I think that's the greater I it's I guess it's just kind of sad, but at the very least, I'm lucky enough to have noticed. It's like, wait a minute, where's all that shitty stuff that I like? Let's bring that back, like fuck them. I because it is it's weird how even now I'll look at an illustration on Instagram that I know took a really long time, and I'll feel that stress, but and then I'll see something that's way looser, and I'll feel the joy, like the fun in it. And I didn't do it, and I have no idea if it was if that one was easy and the other, I have no idea, but I'll feel the intent almost that was put into these things.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Yeah, um, I yeah, I think I think you're feeling the you know the the that that that cage that you built around yourself, right? Yeah of of of other people's rules and and right they're they're they're they're uh can't find the word you know what they their expectations yeah other people's expectations, right?

Closing And Keep In Touch

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Um I I love your spirit, dude. I love your spirit. I love your spirit, I love our Fridays.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Yeah, me too. It's my favorite uh meeting for sure. Okay every every time.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Uh drop me a draw me a line if you got any questions. Will do. Let me know what's going on, okay?

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Very good. I appreciate it, James. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

I love you, buddy. Talk to you later. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

All right, bye.